Dofus talk:Community Portal/Class Guides
Archive Discussion : There is still the minor issue of characters intended for short-term use only. Someone could, conceivably, write a guide intended to get a new player up and running on an int cra or bluff eca in order to gather materials and experience for their first "real" character. Someone could write a guide on a purely support eni for people just starting a second account. Etc... This suggestion would limit that, however small of an issue that might be. BadMrMojo 18:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC) :: True, what we can do is in the class pages make a separation for Long-term builds and short-term builds, that way it will be easier to see what type of built you are checking, also a note in the start of the guide for the short-term built where it is state clearly the purpose of that short-term built. What do you think? More ideas?--Cizagna (Talk) 19:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC) ::: I, personally, think it's fine to evaluate short-term builds on a case-by-case basis, so long as it is specifically addressed in the beginning. I just wanted to raise the potential problem with any strict qualifications of a "good" build. I'd rather have a way to weed out crappy builds which extend to level 60+ than a way to weed out intentionally short-sighted guides. Unfortunately, short of significant editing and moderation, I can't see any particular methodology to do so just yet. BadMrMojo 19:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC) :::: Rewrote the proposal with your ideas implemented. --Cizagna (Talk) 21:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC) : Ok, here's a more direct approach to what I was hinting at above. Length is no guarantee of quality. As it stands, it looks as though even badly written builds will be accepted as being "good" so long as they go on long enough. Did you (or anyone else, speak up!) have any sort of proposal of how to cut out any particularly bad builds which happen to meet the above qualifications or are we just relying on the community as a whole to make that decision, which has sort of failed us so far? The "Deletion votes" seem like a step in the right direction and potentially more important than the requirements. BadMrMojo 22:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC) :: I totally agree with your point of view, what I'm trying to do push at least the information that it's available (thought I would prefer to read level 100 builds), with the re-wrote I did on the proposal it would be easier to pin-point the ones that are long-term builds, if they are good or bad they will be work out by the community in that term as we have been doing, but still sort of fails. In a forum they have the class guide pinned page that if the guide is good it will be add there, if its not, it will not be there and be lost with the new topics there, but we can't afford that system. So then if I'm looking for a feca build I have to read 9 guides or a sadida its 11 guides or the pandawa that its 16 guides and then I have to think which one is the best build. The other thing I can do is get each guide take them to a Imp's Village and ask them to evaluate to see how good or bad is it. As many guides where just created in 3 days and basically has been forgotten by their creators, and if we are stuck with crap guides, I mean look Pandawa/mp this is basically or int or str build for low levels, with those gears it can apply to almost any class with the robber set, then Pandawa/Hybrid it has a skill point distribution of 30 points and what to do with the other 70 point? If I get to 100 also that I have to level from level 20 to 70 to get my next useful skills and don’t know what to kill or where to level so I have to keep asking people and forums because the information source its crappy, so basically this guides does not work that well and there is no comment from no one on the quality of those 2 Pandawa’s guides. Then Sadida/Tofu Pop this is a short-term build to kill tofus aside from that it’s an int build and no more, as this guide does not affect that its separate it could be absorbed on the int build. Sadida/mob killer 2 This is a sort of hybrid build the difference against Sadida/Strength/6 is that it base it self as part of your leveling on Soothing Bramble a skill that when its max has 4 more range, minus 1 cast delay and 5 more of crit fail range, that its possible to level, but aims on the same direction as the damage build and cero recommendation on gears. So now we face the other problem from all the guides that exist not all are read, from all the guides that are read not all are evaluated by the people, so what do we have? We have useless information. So yeah length is not synonymous of quality but beats lack ness and gives a starting point to improve. And idea is that we get users that are constant on this Wikia that has experience on that specific class and do serious evaluations on the talk page trying to point the best aspects of the build and evaluating if the guide is good or bad. Now do you have a better idea on how can we improve or sort the quality of the existing guides to know what is good and what is bad as I’m running out of ideas (for now). As this is not a one way proposal you or ’’’someone’’’ could give another proposal and it may be better than the one I’m currently giving. --Cizagna (Talk) 00:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC) :Sure would be nice to get class guides improved. Some of the "guides" are currently completely pointless. Even the good guides do not reflect recent changes in the game, updated monsters, new areas and new sets. Yet, I am not sure who would be those "experienced players" to manage guides for each class. The level of char does not mean much, many high level players dont remember how it was leveling 20ish char, they could say useless stuff like scroll stats to 50 or get some equipment worth 5 million kamas which is not going to help low level people. I also know how how high level people are not willing to share the good information, for example if someone finds really good map to level fast, he rarely wants to post that in the wiki and get every player to gather on that spot. There is only limited number of acceptable builds for each class, if we can get those up to date so they are helpful, other "guides" could be reduced to comments in the talk pages. - Fogleg 09:44, 7 November 2006 (UTC) ::The Class reviewers will only review the quality of the guide, that way if they want or not to give information that’s up to them (as it has been always here or forums), but at least we can have a starting point to know if the guides are good or bad. Or if the guide it already exist and its like a cloning, etc.--Cizagna (Talk) 01:35, 8 November 2006 (UTC) : To be honest, I wonder whether builds and similar guides are even appropriate in this wiki. This wiki is here for reference, but most of the information in the builds is subjective and speculative. I think this is why these pages cause so much trouble for people to administer. There's no way to really verify the correctness of a build, or the individual bits of advice within a build. Instead, you have different authors arguing over details by repeatedly editing sections of the guides. This kind of discussion and argument belongs in forums, not this wiki. Just my opinion, I won't go deleting builds unless there's widespread agreement. --TaviRider 11:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC) :: That got me thinking (I know, a dangerous thing...) about the difference between a guide and a build. I can see Tavi's point about builds being subjective and impossible to verify as being either "accurate" or "inaccurate," but the idea of a build is primarily factual: You can use these spells and stats along with this equipment in this fashion for this effect. The full guides - Level from 1 to 7 in the tutorial on the arachnee, etc.. etc... lollercoaster... OMGZORZ!... and at level 188 you can hit for 50 damage for 3 ap! - seem like much less of a fit. Perhaps simplifying the guides into strictly a plan for spending spell and characteristic points with notes on equipment, effects and tactics to make them work together in the way imagined by the original author would work...? (...and yes, I fully realize that I'm guilty of the guide issue on a few occasions.) - BadMrMojo 16:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC) ::: I try to write my 'builds' loosely, giving users mathematically-supported choices of gear and spells (eventually I'll have a citation section which displays the exact calculations for an item's worth)... hence, being factual - I have seen what would be called 'guides' giving exact orders to players. I find that these are a lot more oppressive, and (much like a series circuit) fail when a user disagrees with a decision, or can't afford that dazzling belt/turquoise dofus. I believe that players should follow builds for theory, making their own choices... rather than mindlessly following the instructions of a potentially unwise guide-writer. Down with 'guides', up with 'builds'. J-Bizzle 21:51, 29 November 2007 (UTC) Of course... Your right about one thing. It is your opinion that this would be better. Granted it is nice and clean and all that great stuff...but...this is a Wiki...which means EVERYONE has a choice of how it turns out. You also did a rude thing in deleting the links to other peoples builds. People worked hard on them. I restored the builds I could remember to the Pandawa page, but, what about all the others. You must admit...it was rather rude of you..especially without prior notification. Other than that...I think it all looks rather nice...please consider the communities voice though next time. Thank you. -druja 07:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC) :Fully agreed. What I do is to revert against a previous version. If you go to the page history, you can get the full text. --GrauGeist 18:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC) Progress I'm still pretty new to the Wiki, but I'm just curious about what progress is actually being made on the problem that is builds. Correct me if I'm wrong but from the looks of it not much has happened so far. Shouldn't it be quite high priority to sort it out rather than leave it while updating other things. Just curious as I feel that it's somehting which, although gaining lots of attention, isn't any nearer to being solved. Galrauch 16:34, 29 April 2008 (UTC) :Maybe new but you have done very good decent work. Now about guides the answer is "yes its has a huge priority" but that priority go does because work task, builds have becomes long times ago in to a huge mess because well are subjective one build can work with one person and the other can work for another person so then you have many clone type builds, then you have the game been update so old builds may become neft eg: xelor wisdom it was doable before now its a pain, its best just to go do your int build, lvl it and at high lvl change to wisdom build by reseting your char. and there are 12 classes with 5 characteristic each one then double or triple or better yet quadruple the quantity due to clones/versions/hybrids/styles and not counting the ones that change the spells and stuff its a huge quantity and they have to be analyze 1 by 1 and by some one who knows the class the build and has the experience to give proper comments on if the guild is good or bad im more encline to merge guides so one guide is robust and way complete. :Im moving out of subject he he, all that just to explain builds keep changing from day to day while items/npc and the other just from update to update and its not general its more limited so once the rest its finish its just going on to the changes while guides its a constant rework --Cizagna (Talk) 17:11, 25 May 2008 (UTC)